I'm frustrated by folks in the U.S. community college system who emphasize that students need to learn 'time management.' A ton of our students must juggle full-time work, family care, & other tasks. They quite simply don't have time. Let's not force students to somehow magically create a 25th hour in the day. Let's figure out as colleges how to deal with students who have no time.

@rusty IMO a big part of time management is learning when you are trying to take on too much. hours in the day != focus in the day. anyone who is actually productive on a regular basis knows this.

so maybe those folks saying students need to learn "time management" should try learning it themselves.

@rusty yuuuuuuuuup. I hear this a lot at a 4-year institution, too. "They need to learn better time management if they want to pass this course" -- okay, sure, but I have this student in my classes too, and I know that they're working two jobs to pay their rent as well as trying to wrangle custody of a friend's kid from the state. What exactly are they supposed to do?

@hafnia @rusty Math depts were absolutely the worst for this, though I'm not totally sure why. At least half of my professors were like "You should be spending 2 hours a day on this if you want a good grade."

Dude I have a commute to and back from uni, 4 other classes, *and* I tutor every week.

@ari I teach in chem, and yeah...there's an expectation with pchem in particular that you'll be spending hours a day studying. It's not realistic and it's not a good way to teach! @rusty

@hafnia @rusty Thinking about it it's kind of a symptom?

I'm not the chem teacher but I feel like a lot of it is wanting to push rote learning hard so that you can have a huge test for the midterm with a lot of questions where you'll have memorized the right thing or you fail it because you don't have the time to take it slow and derive what you need. If tests had generous amounts of time for fewer questions there'd be less need for memorization and less for heaps of homework?

(To be clear I'm not a teacher at all. I did tutoring and wanted to become a teacher for a long time; I just don't wanna deal with grad school.)

an aside 

Of course it's probably not all to blame on teachers, I imagine there's immense pressure to "measure progress" and stuff like that. Similar to when I was going to uni and professors were heavily pressured to take attendance if not enforce it, the latter of which makes *tons* of sense in a mountain school where in the spring semester it's not unusual for it to be physically impossible for you to get to school from snow/ice. I totally didn't have a friend who failed out because of that.

@ari @hafnia @rusty CS/Math prof here, so factor in probable defensiveness 😉. In my case I expect people to spend extra time time outside of lectures because the only way (I know) to learn this stuff is to write programs / proofs yourself. I know students are busy, but I do think if someone is taking 5 courses then that is basically a full time job. Maybe we need to break up our courses into smaller pieces and be more flexible about the timing?

@bremner I have no problem with homework, and I assign a reasonable amount outside of class (about two hours a week, total). My problem is when professors forget that students are not taking only their class and assign several hours of homework a night. At that point, I genuinely feel that there is a problem with the instruction -- either the quality or how much is being forced into a class. @ari @rusty

@bremner @hafnia @rusty Timing flexibility is definitely a big thing. More or less agree with @hafnia on it. In my theory classes where it'd be like "Turn these 15 NFAs into DFAs and define a stack machine for this language, it's due in a week" was fine. It's heavy homework loads multiple times a week with short deadlines that's a problem because for example, you don't know when I have that 10 page long econ paper due.

@ari @hafnia @rusty Oh, multiple times per week, that's a new one for me. I consider weekly assignments already pretty ambitious.

@bremner @hafnia @rusty You're good c: I dunno about the others but I was specifically thinking about a professor who did the same joke every day in calc 1 where at the end of class he would do like
"Okay, your homework assignment today is to do problems 1 to 6 in the, that's not right. 1 to 68"

@bremner yeah. When I was in undergrad it was nightly Calc assignments and pchem. I usually had about six hours of homework a night on top of papers and other projects. @ari @rusty

@hafnia @bremner @rusty I only took chem 1 and I was bad at it, but part of the reason I was bad at it was that I had one of those "If you're in chem class chem alone is your full time job" people. All the extra homework definitely did *not* help me learn.

@rusty Maybe institutions aren’t the best way to teach people anyway?

@rusty purported individual solutions to systemic problems are always victim-blaming in some form.

@vertigo @rusty I dropped out of community college not because I needed to work but because I liked work way better than school. And I'm pretty sure my first job opened way more doors than an associate's degree would have. Probably not a bachelor's degree, but that would have taken another 2-3 years assuming I didn't end up dropping out anyway. And I would have missed out on being acquired the first time, which let me make my first down payment on a house.

@vertigo @rusty Graduate school acts something like a guild for professions like that. Gotta serve your time as an indentured servant for a professor in order to be allowed to practice. And of course there's the whole journal system which also acts as part of the guild's gatekeeping mechanism.

@vertigo @rusty I wonder. From everything I've heard you're just swapping one kind of bullshit for another. But there's a decent chance you were involved in the last thread I heard that on :D

@vertigo @rusty On this note, I've been going down a bit more of a researchy path lately with my time and data acquisition project. I've started researching telescopes. Just trying to convince myself to get a Dobsonian to start and then get/build a dedicated telescope for the automated stuff I want to do later. (Dobsonians are best for manual or "push to" pointing, but you get a lot of optical bang for your buck.)

@vertigo @rusty I'll also need to do a bunch of research if I ever want to turn my novella idea into an actual novella :D

@vertigo @rusty You just need an adapter, no? Easier if it takes 2" eyepieces, I imagine.

The only downside I see to a Dobsonian is that they're somewhat harder to put a motor on.

@vertigo @rusty No lens on the camera I assume if it's prime focus. I wonder what the issue is? Focal length? Aperture? I assume the scope uses normal eyepieces?

@freakazoid @vertigo Can y'all untag me in your future comments? Thanks!

@vertigo What's your focal ratio? According to my research you probably need a device called a "focal reducer".

@vertigo Well I have some bad news:

I think I may focus (no pun intended) entirely on astrophotography and forget about convenience for direct viewing altogether.

@vertigo Dobsonians are great for easy viewing from everything I've read. There are always a couple at the amateur astronomy meetups I've been to. I found a refractor with a damaged case I'm considering making an offer on.

@vertigo I'll still need to find a camera for it, but I want to see how good of images I can get with our several-year-old m43 camera body.

@rusty @vertigo Let’s start by fixing the economics conditions which make it impossible to go to college on anything less then a well paying full time job.

Let’s start with social welfare programs which allow single parents tome to go to college and have time to study.

There is a laundry list of things before time management is the issue.

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